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Wait for your opponent to mulligan before you do
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sadpwner
#1 Posted : Saturday, May 28, 2016 1:18:23 PM(UTC)

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Mulliganing before your opponent actually gives them information to take advantage of. Basically, your opponent can determine your deck and how good your hand is depending on how many cards you keep. For example, you keep your entire hand so your hand is excellent. Another example, you are playing warlock. If you keep most of your hand, your opponent can guess you're a zoo instead of a renolock because zoo generally keeps more cards than renolock.

This option won't affect the length of the game because both players have to mulligan before the game begins so mulliganing earlier does not make the game start faster.
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uselessmax
#2 Posted : Tuesday, May 31, 2016 7:20:37 PM(UTC)
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sadpwner;38367 wrote:
Mulliganing before your opponent actually gives them information to take advantage of. Basically, your opponent can determine your deck and how good your hand is depending on how many cards you keep. For example, you keep your entire hand so your hand is excellent. Another example, you are playing warlock. If you keep most of your hand, your opponent can guess you're a zoo instead of a renolock because zoo generally keeps more cards than renolock.

This option won't affect the length of the game because both players have to mulligan before the game begins so mulliganing earlier does not make the game start faster.


okay.... i can see how you might think this is relevant but it is not at all - you/your opponent have no idea at all what cards are being mulliganed.

heck you don't even know what type of deck you are facing until turn 1/2 or sometimes later.

you only make these assumptions after you have seen them play at least one or more cards.

also let's say your opponent waits until the last second to mulligan - what then? lol where's your logic....
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sepefeets
#3 Posted : Tuesday, May 31, 2016 10:32:07 PM(UTC)

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uselessmax;38445 wrote:
okay.... i can see how you might think this is relevant but it is not at all - you/your opponent have no idea at all what cards are being mulliganed.

heck you don't even know what type of deck you are facing until turn 1/2 or sometimes later.

you only make these assumptions after you have seen them play at least one or more cards.

also let's say your opponent waits until the last second to mulligan - what then? lol where's your logic....

He gave an example of how it is relevant and you completely ignored it. It's a micro optimization but the argument is valid. Continuing with the Reno Lock vs Zoo Lock example, if you are the Reno Lock player going first, you have aoe's in your starting hand, and you see that your opponent mulliganed 1 card, you are probably going to assume they are Zoo and keep your aoe's. If you see them mulligan 3-4 cards, you can throw out those aoe's because they are likely Reno too. The delay prevents them from having time to change their mulligan to counter what they think you are, but the assumptions mostly only hold up at high level play.
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uselessmax
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 2, 2016 7:18:28 PM(UTC)
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sepefeets;38449 wrote:
He gave an example of how it is relevant and you completely ignored it. It's a micro optimization but the argument is valid. Continuing with the Reno Lock vs Zoo Lock example, if you are the Reno Lock player going first, you have aoe's in your starting hand, and you see that your opponent mulliganed 1 card, you are probably going to assume they are Zoo and keep your aoe's. If you see them mulligan 3-4 cards, you can throw out those aoe's because they are likely Reno too. The delay prevents them from having time to change their mulligan to counter what they think you are, but the assumptions mostly only hold up at high level play.


No i didn't ignore it, I am looking at it in the context of a bot that primarily is used to farm gold, not climb ranks. The bot will likely never be as good as a human player and hence such small nuances as waiting for your opponent to mulligan first to make some sort of assumption is not something that is at all necessary.

The mulligan assumption would probably have a very small success rate anyway, people mulligan for a lot of reasons. What really tells you what kind of deck a player is using is the first few turns and even then sometimes its not accurate as decks can be vastly different.

You're more likely to run into issues when waiting for the opponent to mulligan - e.g. they wait until the last second to do it and then you may end up not mulliganing at all.

Either way I think it's such a minor/if at all advantage that it would not be worth investing time into coding for the application of the bot.
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sadpwner
#5 Posted : Wednesday, June 29, 2016 9:51:46 PM(UTC)

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uselessmax;38488 wrote:
No i didn't ignore it, I am looking at it in the context of a bot that primarily is used to farm gold, not climb ranks. The bot will likely never be as good as a human player and hence such small nuances as waiting for your opponent to mulligan first to make some sort of assumption is not something that is at all necessary.

The mulligan assumption would probably have a very small success rate anyway, people mulligan for a lot of reasons. What really tells you what kind of deck a player is using is the first few turns and even then sometimes its not accurate as decks can be vastly different.

You're more likely to run into issues when waiting for the opponent to mulligan - e.g. they wait until the last second to do it and then you may end up not mulliganing at all.

Either way I think it's such a minor/if at all advantage that it would not be worth investing time into coding for the application of the bot.


Sorry I took so long to reply, I didn't realise this post received replies until now.
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It's success rate will undeniably vary but it is an advantage nonetheless. I use this trick very often and I can confirm it does give you an advantage over your opponents. If you watch any tournament, most high level players will do the same. It's actually more applicable in arena than in rank. Determining the strength of your opponent's hand will vastly aid in your mulligan.

I think you failed to take in consideration one aspect, the people who wait for you to mulligan are the people who know about this trick, so there won't necessarily be any time wastage.

I would admit that it's only applicable in high level gameplay and thus, should be a low priority. However, we do eventually plan to reach legend some day, so the option should be there.
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